Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
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Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by Anastasia on Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:14 pm
Which day must we gather, or rest according to the Old
Testament is it the Sabbath, but Sunday for New Testament believers. So I am asking are we sinning when we
rest on Sunday or not; is my question, and please give substantial scripture to
back up your opinion, because we been lie to all our lives. We must seek out the
truth on this matter, if we want to please our Savior. Any help is much appreciated
thanks to all of you for being so learn I know little comparing to some of you.
The power of our Lord rest on all of you. Anna
Testament is it the Sabbath, but Sunday for New Testament believers. So I am asking are we sinning when we
rest on Sunday or not; is my question, and please give substantial scripture to
back up your opinion, because we been lie to all our lives. We must seek out the
truth on this matter, if we want to please our Savior. Any help is much appreciated
thanks to all of you for being so learn I know little comparing to some of you.
The power of our Lord rest on all of you. Anna
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by DanielV on Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:58 pm
While the Judaizers were trying to force the Gentiles to convert to Judaism, the earliest church, did not want to place certain unnattainable rules upon the new believers. When then did the early church come together and what stipulation was placed as far as honor of the Sabbath day. Then, historically, when did the practice of worshiping on Sunday begin (as opposed to Saturday). Let's look at what the Holy Scriptures say about the Sabbath day (New Testament part of the Holy Scriptures)
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." (Colossians 2:16). We are not to be concerned with how people will judge us for our Sabbath day, and thusly, we shouldn't judge others for their celebration of the Sabbath day.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord." (Romans 14:5,6) In these two verses we see that while one man considers one day more sacred, another man considers them alike. Both of these men are believers in Christ, not to be confused with a believer and a non believer. One man settles on one specific day to give to the Lord, while another sees all days as equal. Neither one was to be condemned for their choice.
What day did the Gentile converts meet? "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight." (Acts 20:8) The purpose of coming together, to partake in the Lord's Supper. They met on the first day of the week. Paul taught that day, or preached (and he was mighty longwinded), for many hours. They met on the first day of the week. While we think of Monday as the first day of the week, that is not true, Sunday is the first day of the week. They met on Sunday.
What were the specific conditions that were placed on the Gentile converts to follow. "'It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.'" (Acts 15:19,20) They did not want to make it difficult for the Gentiles that were turning to God, so what was established (important) to teach . . . abstention from food given for idol worship, sexual immorality, meat from strangled animals (primarily due to idol worship) and blood. Notice, not a mention of the Sabbath day of worship. They were teaching them about worship, they were not concerned about the specific day.
From the earliest known non biblical writings, the day of worship was set on Sunday. Justin Martyr ( Apolog. 2. p. 98, 99.) tells us, who lived within about fifty years after this time, (being the writing of the Book of Revelation) that on the day called τη του ηλιου ημερα, "Sunday", (by the Greeks,) the Christians met together in one place, and read the Scriptures, and prayed together, and administered the ordinance of the supper; and this, he adds, was the first day in which God created the World, and our Saviour Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
The purpose of the Sabbath day is to take a rest and to devote and focus your day to God. The Sabbath Day was created for man to rest, for his good, and not for his hurt; both for the good of his soul, that he might have an opportunity of attending divine worship, both in public and private; and for the good of his body, that he might have rest from his labour; and this was the end of the original institution and appointment of it; and therefore works of necessity are not forbidden on this day; such as are for the necessary comfort, support, and preservation of life; or otherwise it would be apparent, that the sabbath was not appointed for the good, but for the hurt of men.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." (Colossians 2:16). We are not to be concerned with how people will judge us for our Sabbath day, and thusly, we shouldn't judge others for their celebration of the Sabbath day.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord." (Romans 14:5,6) In these two verses we see that while one man considers one day more sacred, another man considers them alike. Both of these men are believers in Christ, not to be confused with a believer and a non believer. One man settles on one specific day to give to the Lord, while another sees all days as equal. Neither one was to be condemned for their choice.
What day did the Gentile converts meet? "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight." (Acts 20:8) The purpose of coming together, to partake in the Lord's Supper. They met on the first day of the week. Paul taught that day, or preached (and he was mighty longwinded), for many hours. They met on the first day of the week. While we think of Monday as the first day of the week, that is not true, Sunday is the first day of the week. They met on Sunday.
What were the specific conditions that were placed on the Gentile converts to follow. "'It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.'" (Acts 15:19,20) They did not want to make it difficult for the Gentiles that were turning to God, so what was established (important) to teach . . . abstention from food given for idol worship, sexual immorality, meat from strangled animals (primarily due to idol worship) and blood. Notice, not a mention of the Sabbath day of worship. They were teaching them about worship, they were not concerned about the specific day.
From the earliest known non biblical writings, the day of worship was set on Sunday. Justin Martyr ( Apolog. 2. p. 98, 99.) tells us, who lived within about fifty years after this time, (being the writing of the Book of Revelation) that on the day called τη του ηλιου ημερα, "Sunday", (by the Greeks,) the Christians met together in one place, and read the Scriptures, and prayed together, and administered the ordinance of the supper; and this, he adds, was the first day in which God created the World, and our Saviour Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
The purpose of the Sabbath day is to take a rest and to devote and focus your day to God. The Sabbath Day was created for man to rest, for his good, and not for his hurt; both for the good of his soul, that he might have an opportunity of attending divine worship, both in public and private; and for the good of his body, that he might have rest from his labour; and this was the end of the original institution and appointment of it; and therefore works of necessity are not forbidden on this day; such as are for the necessary comfort, support, and preservation of life; or otherwise it would be apparent, that the sabbath was not appointed for the good, but for the hurt of men.
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by 4Zion on Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:59 am
Shalom to all,
The topic of the LORD's sabbath is a touchy one in light of the weight that the scriptures places on this day. The Sabbath is a sign of the covenant for YHWH's people from earliest time and clearly established in the Torah. There is no question that the sabbath was to be set aside as holy unto the LORD. The Sinai law clearly establishes this as an everlasting aspect of the covenant with YHWH's people. The basic problem with believing that Colossians 2:16 indicates that we are free to alter the appointed days of Yah. Is that we are infering meaning to this verse that is not clearly backed up with other scripture. Remember that Yeshua NEVER refuted the Sabbath observance of the Jews on the seventh day. He may have differed with their interpretation of what was permitted on this day, such as when his disciples were picking heads of grain to eat.Or when he healed on this day but the day itself was never in question.
It is true that we are not to judge others in questionable points of scripture such as keeping of certain days that one considers holy. This can be interpreted in the observance of the "New moon" celebrations and certain special days like Hannakah and Purim, which are not specifically commanded in Torah. The statement that Paul made in corinthians can easily be looked at in this way. Likely he is saying that you are not to judge those who "keep" the new moons or non established days as special? This makes much more sense to me. We are not to judge others who celebrate non commanded days and I could even include Christmas and Easter in there as well.To argue this point I would have to say that to interpret that the day of the Sabbath was changed is arguing from absence of scripture rather then any clear evidence. I believe that those who were meeting to fellowship on Sunday were ALSO resting on the Sabbath as commanded in the scripture. They probably were attending synagog on that day and reading the Torah. This does not prove that they had adopted sunday as the Sabbath.Yeshua NEVER taught this. In fact if He had he could not have been the true Messiah, as he would have violated His own word(Torah). The statements made by Yeshua in Matthew 5 clearly point out the fact that not one stroke of the pen would pass away from "the law" UNTIL heaven and earth passed away! Did he forget to mention about the change of the observance of the appointed days and the Sabbath? I do not think so! To say that Paul was teaching against the Torah and therefore against Yeshua's teachings is a big ,big problem. If we want o build a understanding of theology and practice based on a few passages of Paul that seem to countradict Yeshua, and disregard what Yeshua clearly said we are on VERY thin ice.
This passage in colossians can be interpreted to mean something very differant(almost the exact opposite) from what the church has taught through the ages. It is true that the historical church has taken that perspective and practice from the time of Constantin, but does that make it true??? The non jewish church has replaced ALLl "Jewish" practices with their own versions. Disregarding the Appointed days and Sabbath as well as dietary instructions to suit themselves. Read 2 Peter and see the Apostles warnings about what people have done with Pauls writings and how they have perverted the scriptures. Much of this letter deals with false teaching and false prophets. In vs. 15- Peter specifically addresses how people twist Pauls writings to there own destruction!
Why do so many bible scholors think they can take ideas from a single passage of scripture or cobble together two or three vague passages to support their claims? This is what I refer to as "reckless theology". To seperate the clear teachings of the Torah from Yeshua's words and the writings of the apostles is DANGEROUS! The church has done this from early times even persecuting and killing those who kept the commands of YHWH. The church has become "another tree" and not the Olive tree that Paul spoke of in Romans 11. I may be labeled a judaizer but I have never taught that keeping the Law will save anyone. The curse came by transgression of the Law not the keeping of it. Read 1st John 3:4 this is exactly what the apostle John says."Sin is the transgression of the Law ." The idea of "a judaiser" is to say that one must become circumcised to be saved or that by keeping outward signs and mans traditions is required for salvation. This does not indicate that we are to disregard the Torah and the established practices commanded by YHWH ,only that we cannot earn salvation through those things. Many in the church have tried to create there own traditions of men to obtain salvation or replace what YHWH has commanded clearly for His people.
I personally do not believe that the people of YHWH are seperated into two (spiritual)groups "the Jews and the non Jews" and that they are to be delt with differantly. Sin is sin and the fact that someone is a Jew or a gentile does not change that. The Sabbath was established at creation! It was not just part of Judaism. It did not just appear at Sinai and the giving of the written Law to establish the covenant between YHWH and the descendants of Abraham. The Sabbath is not" the Jews Sabbath" ,it is YHWH's Sabbath! It is for ALL mankind! The sunday replacement of Sabbath is straight out of Catholic doctrine aa well as the changing of the appointed days of Yah. Is a direct slap in the face of the creator, by the man made church and the traditions it established.
I am not trying to be contentious in this. It is not a personal attack on Daniel or anyone on the forum. It is an attack on the reckless theology of traditional church teaching. It is one of the issues that drove me away from mainstream churches. I believe that those who teach disobedience to the smallest command of YHWH will be least in the kingdom just as Yeshua said.
If we are going to make doctrines that go against the clear teaching of the scripture and interpret the NT letters to mean that the established standard of rightiousness of YHWH(The Law) which Yeshua embodied(the word became flesh) are invalid or have been changed. I believe we are in DANGER! I give this warning in Love and not judgement of the bretheren. Each will stand before YHWH and give an account in the end. Personally I find that a very sobering thought! I do not want to be guilty of changing or removing anything from YHWH's word. I fear for those who do this. Remember YHWH ,NEVER CHANGES! His word remains the same forever and not one stroke of the pen will pass away until both heaven and earth pass away. When all sin is purged and judgement has been executed there will be no need of a standard of rightiousness. Those who are His will be Holy and the sin nature will be removed forever.Then the New Jerusalem will descend on a New Earth.And His people(the bride) will dwell with Him forever!
Blessings in Yeshua!
The topic of the LORD's sabbath is a touchy one in light of the weight that the scriptures places on this day. The Sabbath is a sign of the covenant for YHWH's people from earliest time and clearly established in the Torah. There is no question that the sabbath was to be set aside as holy unto the LORD. The Sinai law clearly establishes this as an everlasting aspect of the covenant with YHWH's people. The basic problem with believing that Colossians 2:16 indicates that we are free to alter the appointed days of Yah. Is that we are infering meaning to this verse that is not clearly backed up with other scripture. Remember that Yeshua NEVER refuted the Sabbath observance of the Jews on the seventh day. He may have differed with their interpretation of what was permitted on this day, such as when his disciples were picking heads of grain to eat.Or when he healed on this day but the day itself was never in question.
It is true that we are not to judge others in questionable points of scripture such as keeping of certain days that one considers holy. This can be interpreted in the observance of the "New moon" celebrations and certain special days like Hannakah and Purim, which are not specifically commanded in Torah. The statement that Paul made in corinthians can easily be looked at in this way. Likely he is saying that you are not to judge those who "keep" the new moons or non established days as special? This makes much more sense to me. We are not to judge others who celebrate non commanded days and I could even include Christmas and Easter in there as well.To argue this point I would have to say that to interpret that the day of the Sabbath was changed is arguing from absence of scripture rather then any clear evidence. I believe that those who were meeting to fellowship on Sunday were ALSO resting on the Sabbath as commanded in the scripture. They probably were attending synagog on that day and reading the Torah. This does not prove that they had adopted sunday as the Sabbath.Yeshua NEVER taught this. In fact if He had he could not have been the true Messiah, as he would have violated His own word(Torah). The statements made by Yeshua in Matthew 5 clearly point out the fact that not one stroke of the pen would pass away from "the law" UNTIL heaven and earth passed away! Did he forget to mention about the change of the observance of the appointed days and the Sabbath? I do not think so! To say that Paul was teaching against the Torah and therefore against Yeshua's teachings is a big ,big problem. If we want o build a understanding of theology and practice based on a few passages of Paul that seem to countradict Yeshua, and disregard what Yeshua clearly said we are on VERY thin ice.
This passage in colossians can be interpreted to mean something very differant(almost the exact opposite) from what the church has taught through the ages. It is true that the historical church has taken that perspective and practice from the time of Constantin, but does that make it true??? The non jewish church has replaced ALLl "Jewish" practices with their own versions. Disregarding the Appointed days and Sabbath as well as dietary instructions to suit themselves. Read 2 Peter and see the Apostles warnings about what people have done with Pauls writings and how they have perverted the scriptures. Much of this letter deals with false teaching and false prophets. In vs. 15- Peter specifically addresses how people twist Pauls writings to there own destruction!
Why do so many bible scholors think they can take ideas from a single passage of scripture or cobble together two or three vague passages to support their claims? This is what I refer to as "reckless theology". To seperate the clear teachings of the Torah from Yeshua's words and the writings of the apostles is DANGEROUS! The church has done this from early times even persecuting and killing those who kept the commands of YHWH. The church has become "another tree" and not the Olive tree that Paul spoke of in Romans 11. I may be labeled a judaizer but I have never taught that keeping the Law will save anyone. The curse came by transgression of the Law not the keeping of it. Read 1st John 3:4 this is exactly what the apostle John says."Sin is the transgression of the Law ." The idea of "a judaiser" is to say that one must become circumcised to be saved or that by keeping outward signs and mans traditions is required for salvation. This does not indicate that we are to disregard the Torah and the established practices commanded by YHWH ,only that we cannot earn salvation through those things. Many in the church have tried to create there own traditions of men to obtain salvation or replace what YHWH has commanded clearly for His people.
I personally do not believe that the people of YHWH are seperated into two (spiritual)groups "the Jews and the non Jews" and that they are to be delt with differantly. Sin is sin and the fact that someone is a Jew or a gentile does not change that. The Sabbath was established at creation! It was not just part of Judaism. It did not just appear at Sinai and the giving of the written Law to establish the covenant between YHWH and the descendants of Abraham. The Sabbath is not" the Jews Sabbath" ,it is YHWH's Sabbath! It is for ALL mankind! The sunday replacement of Sabbath is straight out of Catholic doctrine aa well as the changing of the appointed days of Yah. Is a direct slap in the face of the creator, by the man made church and the traditions it established.
I am not trying to be contentious in this. It is not a personal attack on Daniel or anyone on the forum. It is an attack on the reckless theology of traditional church teaching. It is one of the issues that drove me away from mainstream churches. I believe that those who teach disobedience to the smallest command of YHWH will be least in the kingdom just as Yeshua said.
If we are going to make doctrines that go against the clear teaching of the scripture and interpret the NT letters to mean that the established standard of rightiousness of YHWH(The Law) which Yeshua embodied(the word became flesh) are invalid or have been changed. I believe we are in DANGER! I give this warning in Love and not judgement of the bretheren. Each will stand before YHWH and give an account in the end. Personally I find that a very sobering thought! I do not want to be guilty of changing or removing anything from YHWH's word. I fear for those who do this. Remember YHWH ,NEVER CHANGES! His word remains the same forever and not one stroke of the pen will pass away until both heaven and earth pass away. When all sin is purged and judgement has been executed there will be no need of a standard of rightiousness. Those who are His will be Holy and the sin nature will be removed forever.Then the New Jerusalem will descend on a New Earth.And His people(the bride) will dwell with Him forever!
Blessings in Yeshua!
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by IXOYE0809 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:51 pm
Anastasia wrote:Which day must we gather, or rest according to the Old
Testament is it the Sabbath, but Sunday for New Testament believers. So I am asking are we sinning when we
rest on Sunday or not; is my question, and please give substantial scripture to
back up your opinion, because we been lie to all our lives. We must seek out the
truth on this matter, if we want to please our Savior. Any help is much appreciated
thanks to all of you for being so learn I know little comparing to some of you.
The power of our Lord rest on all of you. Anna
God Bless you .. I think the answer comes straight from our Lord's lips
| Mat 12:8 | "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." |
| Mat 12:9 | Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. |
| Mat 12:10 | And a man {was there} whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse Him. |
| Mat 12:11 | And He said to them, "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? |
| Mat 12:12 | "How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." |
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by Rosetta on Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:05 pm
On the sabbath/sunday i go to church and pray with he congregation edifying with all and singing songs of praises...it is very fullfilling for me...i also spend the rest of the day at home making the sunday meal and enjoying it with my family. God always is forefront in my mind and heart and in my house. The sabbath the way it was originally was for the Jews, as for us followers of Christ we should do good deeds and enjoy the day of rest thinking of our Creator and Christ who saved us and the Holy Spirit who provides us with infinite wisdom and love of all.
God is great....
God is great....
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by jimbobthephonecian on Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:45 pm
Yes, many christians follow pagan traditions. Concerning the Sabbath, one of my favorite quotes is from Isaiah 58:13-14,'If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath(take your foot off My Holy time! Quit tranplilng over all that which is Holy and sacred to Me!) from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delilght (not a yoke of bondage), the holy of the Eternal, honourable; and shalt honour Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words; Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord'. The sin is in profaning that which God made Holy. Man has no authority to make a day holy. In Acts 7:38, those Israelites "recieved the lively oracles to give unto us" for us who, under the New TEstament, are Christians.
In Luke 24:1 the women came to do the word of a common weekday. "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment", this statement is inspired by the Holy Spirit. THis was written 30 years after the establilshment of the New Testament church. John 20:1 was written 60 years after the crucifixion.
Acts 20:7 "Upon the first day of the week, disciples came to break bread..." Paul preached till midnight (Sat night). Pauls companions set sail Saturday night, after the sabbath had ended.
Paul and the gentile converts kept the sabbath. Acts 13:14-15;42-44, "When they departed from Perga, then came to Antioch, and went into the synagogue on teh sabbath", "the gentiles besought that thes words might be preached to them the next sabbath."
Acts 15:1-2,14-21 "For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." THe apostles letter did not reprove them for keeping the sabbath.
Acts 18:1-11 "...reasoned in synagogue every sabbath and persuaded Jews and Greeks"
1Cor 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
Acts 17:2 Paul "as his manner was...three sabbath days"
Luke 4;16 Jesus, "as his custom was ....kept the sabbath"
Eph.2:11-12 All the promises were given to Israel
Rom. 9;4 God gave the promises which include salvation.
1Cor. 5;7-8 "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep the feast." Let us of the New Testament dispensation, because Christ had died, keep the feast of unleavened bread.
Acts 20:6 "We sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread."
The passage from Col. 2:16, the gentile converts are being judged by their pagan neighbors, not Jews. He is saying let no man judge, but the body of Christ(the church) should judge. My translation says 'but the body is of Christ'. The word 'is' was added by the translators and shouldn't be there. It should read 'but the body of Chirst'. They were being judged because they were keeping the sabbaths and the dietary laws
There is no 'least commandment' and those who teach others to transgress the commandments don't end up in the kingdom. Jim
In Luke 24:1 the women came to do the word of a common weekday. "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment", this statement is inspired by the Holy Spirit. THis was written 30 years after the establilshment of the New Testament church. John 20:1 was written 60 years after the crucifixion.
Acts 20:7 "Upon the first day of the week, disciples came to break bread..." Paul preached till midnight (Sat night). Pauls companions set sail Saturday night, after the sabbath had ended.
Paul and the gentile converts kept the sabbath. Acts 13:14-15;42-44, "When they departed from Perga, then came to Antioch, and went into the synagogue on teh sabbath", "the gentiles besought that thes words might be preached to them the next sabbath."
Acts 15:1-2,14-21 "For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." THe apostles letter did not reprove them for keeping the sabbath.
Acts 18:1-11 "...reasoned in synagogue every sabbath and persuaded Jews and Greeks"
1Cor 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
Acts 17:2 Paul "as his manner was...three sabbath days"
Luke 4;16 Jesus, "as his custom was ....kept the sabbath"
Eph.2:11-12 All the promises were given to Israel
Rom. 9;4 God gave the promises which include salvation.
1Cor. 5;7-8 "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep the feast." Let us of the New Testament dispensation, because Christ had died, keep the feast of unleavened bread.
Acts 20:6 "We sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread."
The passage from Col. 2:16, the gentile converts are being judged by their pagan neighbors, not Jews. He is saying let no man judge, but the body of Christ(the church) should judge. My translation says 'but the body is of Christ'. The word 'is' was added by the translators and shouldn't be there. It should read 'but the body of Chirst'. They were being judged because they were keeping the sabbaths and the dietary laws
There is no 'least commandment' and those who teach others to transgress the commandments don't end up in the kingdom. Jim
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by Anastasia on Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:08 am
Hey guys I am so bless to have you all I am quite persuaded
that Yahweh meant to keep the Sabbath all because of all these so well done intelligent
articles and when I look at the strongest concordance there is about 130 or
more verses just on the Sabbath. I have read both sides and when I search for
Sabbath they are very clear on what Yahweh has to say about the Sabbaths He is
very serious to the point of death and destruction to us if we do not keep
them. New Testament is also full of Sabbaths Yahweh wanted for His people to
keep the Sabbath Holy unto Him and we should obey Him and not traditions or Church creeds. I for one cast myself to the side and may Yahweh forgive us for being so blind to the truth. It makes
sense that if not a dot or an stroke of a pen will pass away until all be
fulfill. In Yeshua’s own words that the same as He did not come to take away the law but to fulfill the law, it
tells me the law still stands and so Sabbath still also stands. I thank you all
for your opinions, and I pray we all cast aside our pride and submit to Yahweh’s
truth. This is why I love this forum, we must all benefit from knowing what truth
is. Make Your Word burn into our hearts now and forever as it burns in mine
right now. Thanks Now pray for me that my store will give me Saturdays off. Love
you all and nobody here is a false teacher we are all just deceived by Satan.
Anastasia>>meaning resurrection in Greek or returning to life from the
dead. That is what happen to me today I want to know all about Yahweh’s truth.
That will be my next step study more on the Sabbaths Of our Yahweh. 
that Yahweh meant to keep the Sabbath all because of all these so well done intelligent
articles and when I look at the strongest concordance there is about 130 or
more verses just on the Sabbath. I have read both sides and when I search for
Sabbath they are very clear on what Yahweh has to say about the Sabbaths He is
very serious to the point of death and destruction to us if we do not keep
them. New Testament is also full of Sabbaths Yahweh wanted for His people to
keep the Sabbath Holy unto Him and we should obey Him and not traditions or Church creeds. I for one cast myself to the side and may Yahweh forgive us for being so blind to the truth. It makes
sense that if not a dot or an stroke of a pen will pass away until all be
fulfill. In Yeshua’s own words that the same as He did not come to take away the law but to fulfill the law, it
tells me the law still stands and so Sabbath still also stands. I thank you all
for your opinions, and I pray we all cast aside our pride and submit to Yahweh’s
truth. This is why I love this forum, we must all benefit from knowing what truth
is. Make Your Word burn into our hearts now and forever as it burns in mine
right now. Thanks Now pray for me that my store will give me Saturdays off. Love
you all and nobody here is a false teacher we are all just deceived by Satan.
Anastasia>>meaning resurrection in Greek or returning to life from the
dead. That is what happen to me today I want to know all about Yahweh’s truth.
That will be my next step study more on the Sabbaths Of our Yahweh.
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by 4Zion on Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:03 am
YHWH, We YOUR people DELIGHT in YOUR SHABBAT!
Thank You Adonai Elohim!
Thank You Adonai Elohim!
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by IXOYE0809 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:16 am
Rosa .. you are correct .. we (believers) are a law unto ourselves .. for God judges us by our hearts, not the law .. God desires us to share the Good News of Salvation, edify each other and praise him .. as to a day of REST, you may do that in your heart or in a church, on Sunday or Saturday or any day of your choosing (I choose all days) .. worshiping on Sunday matters NOT to Yehoshua .. I think most people here are having a hard time understanding this .. there is NOTHING pagan about worshiping on a Sunday and working on a Saturday .. Yehoshua according to the Law broke the Sabbath on a few occassions .. He IS Lord of the Sabbath .. this does NOT mean Lord of Saturday .. We read in the New Testament of Yehoshua and the Apostle observing the LAW of reading scripture on the Sabbath .. this was done to BRIDGE the gap as to bring salvation of GRACE to those under the LAW ..
1Cr 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
However .. we are NOT bound by the law but are judged by our hearts ..
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Here it is said VERY plainly ..
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Thus we keep our eyes on HIM seven days a week and do God's will seven days a week .. we are RELEASED from LAW as a Jewish believer in Yehoshua and NEVER were under the LAW as a Gentile .. PLEASE brothers and sisters do NOT judge the hearts of the brethren and call them "practicers of pagan rites" .. for Yehoshua was also WRONGLY accused of NOT keeping the Sabbath .. THE SABBATH (rest) IS GRACE OF SALVATION .. NOT A DAY ..
Hbr 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Hbr 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
1Cr 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
However .. we are NOT bound by the law but are judged by our hearts ..
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Here it is said VERY plainly ..
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Thus we keep our eyes on HIM seven days a week and do God's will seven days a week .. we are RELEASED from LAW as a Jewish believer in Yehoshua and NEVER were under the LAW as a Gentile .. PLEASE brothers and sisters do NOT judge the hearts of the brethren and call them "practicers of pagan rites" .. for Yehoshua was also WRONGLY accused of NOT keeping the Sabbath .. THE SABBATH (rest) IS GRACE OF SALVATION .. NOT A DAY ..
Hbr 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Hbr 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by IXOYE0809 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:32 am
The Laws given to Moses (leviticus) are likened to rules for children and were given ONLY to God's disobedient chosen children (Jews) to seperate them from other peoples (pagans) and keep them from misbehaving as in their idolitry etc .. these chosen children could NOT even wait for Moses to come down off the mountain with the 10 Commandments before they started sinning ..the 10 Commandments appy to both of God's covenants LAW & GRACE .. they are the MORALS which we abide by .. under the covenant of GRACE we are suppose to be as adults (like the honor system) whom God expects us to behave without rules but abide because of LOVE for God, and NOT because we live under rules which govern us .. as Paul says we instinctively do what is right once we accept God's gift of salvation .. that is maturity .. however, if we fail in this after we call ourselves Christians and behave as disobedient children and do NOT submit ourselves on our OWN to His will, he will "spit us out"
2Pe 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
Luk 9:62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
to reiterate .. if we love one another we have fulfilled the law .. and we ARE the church (His bride) .. the Kingdom of God is WITHIN US .. may God bless each and everyone .. IXOYE
2Pe 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
Luk 9:62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
to reiterate .. if we love one another we have fulfilled the law .. and we ARE the church (His bride) .. the Kingdom of God is WITHIN US .. may God bless each and everyone .. IXOYE
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by sugarman on Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:54 pm
Anastasia wrote:Which day must we gather, or rest according to the Old
Testament is it the Sabbath, but Sunday for New Testament believers. So I am asking are we sinning when we
rest on Sunday or not; is my question, and please give substantial scripture to
back up your opinion, because we been lie to all our lives. We must seek out the
truth on this matter, if we want to please our Savior. Any help is much appreciated
thanks to all of you for being so learn I know little comparing to some of you.
The power of our Lord rest on all of you. Anna
People worship on sunday morning because Jesus was found empty His tomb sunday morning.
WE have account of History from 112 ad from plingy the younger who was a roman who wrote in 112 ad that The christians would meet before sunrise on a fixed day.
Daniel as far as I know believe in a sunday ressurection.
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by sugarman on Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:02 pm
Anastasia wrote:Hey guys I am so bless to have you all I am quite persuaded
that Yahweh meant to keep the Sabbath all because of all these so well done intelligent
articles and when I look at the strongest concordance there is about 130 or
more verses just on the Sabbath. I have read both sides and when I search for
Sabbath they are very clear on what Yahweh has to say about the Sabbaths He is
very serious to the point of death and destruction to us if we do not keep
them. New Testament is also full of Sabbaths Yahweh wanted for His people to
keep the Sabbath Holy unto Him and we should obey Him and not traditions or Church creeds. I for one cast myself to the side and may Yahweh forgive us for being so blind to the truth. It makes
sense that if not a dot or an stroke of a pen will pass away until all be
fulfill. In Yeshua’s own words that the same as He did not come to take away the law but to fulfill the law, it
tells me the law still stands and so Sabbath still also stands. I thank you all
for your opinions, and I pray we all cast aside our pride and submit to Yahweh’s
truth. This is why I love this forum, we must all benefit from knowing what truth
is. Make Your Word burn into our hearts now and forever as it burns in mine
right now. Thanks Now pray for me that my store will give me Saturdays off. Love
you all and nobody here is a false teacher we are all just deceived by Satan.
Anastasia>>meaning resurrection in Greek or returning to life from the
dead. That is what happen to me today I want to know all about Yahweh’s truth.
That will be my next step study more on the Sabbaths Of our Yahweh.
they are very clear on what Yahweh has to say about the Sabbaths He is
very serious to the point of death and destruction to us if we do not keep
them.
Our salvation is not base on keeping The Law.
http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/torah.htm
here is a site that does a good Job explainging things
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by 4Zion on Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:11 pm
The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week(Saturday) It was established at creation.It is YHWH's Sabbath. It is for ALL mankind. It is sin to work on the sabbath .It is to be set apart as Holy unto YHWH.Sunday is not nor ever has been the Sabbath. It is not a substitute that is acceptable to YHWH.It is a man ordained holy day. It is not a sin to worship on sunday or any other day.But it does not replace YHWH's sabbath.The idea that it has is delusion and deception. It is utter nonsense!
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by sugarman on Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:18 pm
4Zion wrote:The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week(Saturday) It was established at creation.It is YHWH's Sabbath. It is for ALL mankind. It is sin to work on the sabbath .It is to be set apart as Holy unto YHWH.Sunday is not nor ever has been the Sabbath. It is not a substitute that is acceptable to YHWH.It is a man ordained holy day. It is not a sin to worship on sunday or any other day.But it does not replace YHWH's sabbath.The idea that it has is delusion and deception. It is utter nonsense!
what about people who have no choice to work on saturdays?
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by Anastasia on Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:33 pm
Hold on Sugar man, maybe I should say me not all of us,
sorry God knows what he is doing. I do not try to earn salvation by keeping the
Law; that is already given to me free of charge. But I do love Yahweh’s law
because He put it there for my benefit, when I obey it I know God is please
when I break it He is not please, well it goes the same with the Sabbath. if I
could obey it I would but that would be for now impossible, well that does not
mean I am going to hell or anyone before me who has not kept the Law will go to
Hell I do not judge Yahweh does that. I just realized that as long as I work
for Wal-Mart I can never have the Sabbath off. You might say why, it is because
our week starts Saturday and it ends on Friday. So this is where Yahweh’s grace
comes in. He knows I want to please Him so I ask Him to do whatever He sees fit
so that I can please Him. Listen Sugarman I already wrote an article on how the
law is written in our hearts and our minds and that we are not under bondage of
the Law but under grace. But you can’t say that Yeshua is not pleased with us
when we try to keep all His ways. He said follow me so the easiest way not to go
wrong is do as Jesus did. If you fall short it is okay we need to depend and
keep trying harder if not than were is the cross we are to carry. Here is what
Yahweh said in Exodus 31: 14-15 Therefore, you must keep the Sabbath as
something sacred. Whoever desecrates it shall be put to death. If anyone does
work on that day, he must be rooted out of his people. Six days there are for
doing work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of complete rest, sacred to the
LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Exodus16:27-28
Still, on the seventh day some of the people went out to gather it, although
they did not find any. Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you
refuse to keep my commandments and laws? Take note! The LORD has given you the Sabbath.
That is why on the sixth day he gives you food for two days. On the seventh day
everyone is to stay home and no one is to go out." Exodus31:12-13 The LORD
said to Moses, "You must also tell the Israelites: Take care to keep my Sabbaths,
for that is to be the token between you and me throughout the generations, to
show that it is I, the LORD, who make you holy. Now Sugarman nobody is forcing
you to do anything I like to do it because it is His day of rest for all eternity.
Even when we go to heaven the Sabbath will never go away. I believe this is
talking about when Yeshua comes to give us salvation. Isaiah 56:1-4 1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do
justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it;
that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any
evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the
Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people:
neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord
unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me,
and take hold of my covenant; As you can see The Jews and Gentiles do receive the
same blessings and curses Jew and Gentile one in Yeshua. Have you read my
letter on Jew and Gentile I hope it is still in the forum? Blessings to you my
dear brother, we are free to do His will. Yahweh might be speaking to me at
this time. He knows our hearts and if your heart does not condemned you than do
not worry okay Brother. Peace Anna
sorry God knows what he is doing. I do not try to earn salvation by keeping the
Law; that is already given to me free of charge. But I do love Yahweh’s law
because He put it there for my benefit, when I obey it I know God is please
when I break it He is not please, well it goes the same with the Sabbath. if I
could obey it I would but that would be for now impossible, well that does not
mean I am going to hell or anyone before me who has not kept the Law will go to
Hell I do not judge Yahweh does that. I just realized that as long as I work
for Wal-Mart I can never have the Sabbath off. You might say why, it is because
our week starts Saturday and it ends on Friday. So this is where Yahweh’s grace
comes in. He knows I want to please Him so I ask Him to do whatever He sees fit
so that I can please Him. Listen Sugarman I already wrote an article on how the
law is written in our hearts and our minds and that we are not under bondage of
the Law but under grace. But you can’t say that Yeshua is not pleased with us
when we try to keep all His ways. He said follow me so the easiest way not to go
wrong is do as Jesus did. If you fall short it is okay we need to depend and
keep trying harder if not than were is the cross we are to carry. Here is what
Yahweh said in Exodus 31: 14-15 Therefore, you must keep the Sabbath as
something sacred. Whoever desecrates it shall be put to death. If anyone does
work on that day, he must be rooted out of his people. Six days there are for
doing work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of complete rest, sacred to the
LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Exodus16:27-28
Still, on the seventh day some of the people went out to gather it, although
they did not find any. Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you
refuse to keep my commandments and laws? Take note! The LORD has given you the Sabbath.
That is why on the sixth day he gives you food for two days. On the seventh day
everyone is to stay home and no one is to go out." Exodus31:12-13 The LORD
said to Moses, "You must also tell the Israelites: Take care to keep my Sabbaths,
for that is to be the token between you and me throughout the generations, to
show that it is I, the LORD, who make you holy. Now Sugarman nobody is forcing
you to do anything I like to do it because it is His day of rest for all eternity.
Even when we go to heaven the Sabbath will never go away. I believe this is
talking about when Yeshua comes to give us salvation. Isaiah 56:1-4 1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do
justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it;
that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any
evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the
Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people:
neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord
unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me,
and take hold of my covenant; As you can see The Jews and Gentiles do receive the
same blessings and curses Jew and Gentile one in Yeshua. Have you read my
letter on Jew and Gentile I hope it is still in the forum? Blessings to you my
dear brother, we are free to do His will. Yahweh might be speaking to me at
this time. He knows our hearts and if your heart does not condemned you than do
not worry okay Brother. Peace Anna
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by 4Zion on Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:02 am
Shalom!
I guess they will just have to work that out with God, YHWH will honor their obedience.It does not change anything. We are not talking about salvation here BUT we are talking about obedience to the word of YHWH,and the blessings or curses that follow it. I also know of a man thatwas asked to sacrifice his own son, long ago. He also had to make a very hard choice! YHWH will make a way if we act by faith. If money or anything else becomes more important to us then obedience to the word...well we are in trouble!
Many believers quote passages from Pauls letters to justify their stance that the Torah is "not for christians." I have listened to that nonsense most of my life. They have absolutely NO concept of what Paul is speaking about! Many,many times what is translated as "the law" is in fact the "oral laws". Traditions and regulations of Judaism. Laws that were ADDED to the Torah. This is much like churches today teaching that it is sin to dance or go to a movie wear jewery or makeup. These are manmade rules( laws,) NOT YHWH's laws. These are the laws that Yeshua and the disciples were struggling against, not the Laws of Moses.
To point at the children of Israel and call them rebellious.While christians won't even keep ALL TEN of the commands that they believe are for them. Seems a little hypocritical, to say the least! Saying that we operate on an honor system seems like a convenient way of saying... God will honor what ever we feel like doing....as long as we are sincere . This is a very SERIOUS mistake! Remember the Jews spent 70 yrs of captivity to Babylon, because they thought THAT, about the 4th commandment! YHWH takes the issue of the Sabbath VERY seriously.
If Christians were completely ignorant. I suppose there might be some excuse. But, I do NOT believe that they are. Most are simply rebellious and stiff necked. They know better but still make excuses ,to justify their disobedience. That, just will NOT wash ,on Judgement day! I dont know how many times I have heard christians say... "Well I know that the OT sabbath is on saturday, BUT, we observe it on sunday!"
My question is ...WHY??? If they know the truth, why don't they just observe Sabbath on Saturday?The answer to that question,is because it is inconvenient! They have things they like to do on saturday. Mow the lawn, watch football, go to a movie.... They want to observe their sabbath their own way and not the way YHWH instructed them to. Setting it aside for HIM. Keeping it HOLY and focusing on HIM. Not focusing on work or entertainment! For crying out loud ,doesn't He even get That ONE day that He asked for??? This is not burger king folks. We do not get to have it, OUR way!
Much of what people believe today is the result of "post modernism, moral relitivity and situational ethics".However, YHWH's word does not change with the times or the culture.The Law of YHWH" defines" what sin is. It defines what is rightious in His eyes. This is needed NOW, more then ever. People have no moral compass without it,There are no guildline besides it. To say that it is irrelivant or just for one group of people is just ludicrous! We are not on an "honor system!!!" We WILL be held accountable to YHWH's word in the end. I personally do not want anyones blood on my hands, because I watered down the truth.Or taught that the obedience to the word was a personal preferance, or an acceptable option for believers.
It is really quite simple!
Yeshua said " IF you love me, you WILL keep my commandments!" If we think Yeshuas commands were differant then those given at Sinai. Then we must believe that Yeshua was not the I AM as he said that he was! We just can't have it both ways.
Blessings in Yeshua!
I guess they will just have to work that out with God, YHWH will honor their obedience.It does not change anything. We are not talking about salvation here BUT we are talking about obedience to the word of YHWH,and the blessings or curses that follow it. I also know of a man thatwas asked to sacrifice his own son, long ago. He also had to make a very hard choice! YHWH will make a way if we act by faith. If money or anything else becomes more important to us then obedience to the word...well we are in trouble!
Many believers quote passages from Pauls letters to justify their stance that the Torah is "not for christians." I have listened to that nonsense most of my life. They have absolutely NO concept of what Paul is speaking about! Many,many times what is translated as "the law" is in fact the "oral laws". Traditions and regulations of Judaism. Laws that were ADDED to the Torah. This is much like churches today teaching that it is sin to dance or go to a movie wear jewery or makeup. These are manmade rules( laws,) NOT YHWH's laws. These are the laws that Yeshua and the disciples were struggling against, not the Laws of Moses.
To point at the children of Israel and call them rebellious.While christians won't even keep ALL TEN of the commands that they believe are for them. Seems a little hypocritical, to say the least! Saying that we operate on an honor system seems like a convenient way of saying... God will honor what ever we feel like doing....as long as we are sincere . This is a very SERIOUS mistake! Remember the Jews spent 70 yrs of captivity to Babylon, because they thought THAT, about the 4th commandment! YHWH takes the issue of the Sabbath VERY seriously.
If Christians were completely ignorant. I suppose there might be some excuse. But, I do NOT believe that they are. Most are simply rebellious and stiff necked. They know better but still make excuses ,to justify their disobedience. That, just will NOT wash ,on Judgement day! I dont know how many times I have heard christians say... "Well I know that the OT sabbath is on saturday, BUT, we observe it on sunday!"
My question is ...WHY??? If they know the truth, why don't they just observe Sabbath on Saturday?The answer to that question,is because it is inconvenient! They have things they like to do on saturday. Mow the lawn, watch football, go to a movie.... They want to observe their sabbath their own way and not the way YHWH instructed them to. Setting it aside for HIM. Keeping it HOLY and focusing on HIM. Not focusing on work or entertainment! For crying out loud ,doesn't He even get That ONE day that He asked for??? This is not burger king folks. We do not get to have it, OUR way!
Much of what people believe today is the result of "post modernism, moral relitivity and situational ethics".However, YHWH's word does not change with the times or the culture.The Law of YHWH" defines" what sin is. It defines what is rightious in His eyes. This is needed NOW, more then ever. People have no moral compass without it,There are no guildline besides it. To say that it is irrelivant or just for one group of people is just ludicrous! We are not on an "honor system!!!" We WILL be held accountable to YHWH's word in the end. I personally do not want anyones blood on my hands, because I watered down the truth.Or taught that the obedience to the word was a personal preferance, or an acceptable option for believers.
It is really quite simple!
Yeshua said " IF you love me, you WILL keep my commandments!" If we think Yeshuas commands were differant then those given at Sinai. Then we must believe that Yeshua was not the I AM as he said that he was! We just can't have it both ways.
Blessings in Yeshua!
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by IXOYE0809 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:14 am
4Zion wrote:The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week(Saturday) It was established at creation.It is YHWH's Sabbath. It is for ALL mankind. It is sin to work on the sabbath .It is to be set apart as Holy unto YHWH.Sunday is not nor ever has been the Sabbath. It is not a substitute that is acceptable to YHWH.It is a man ordained holy day. It is not a sin to worship on sunday or any other day.But it does not replace YHWH's sabbath.The idea that it has is delusion and deception. It is utter nonsense!
Please show me in Genesis where the 7th day of "rest" is listed as Saturday .. thank you .. IXOYE
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by 4Zion on Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:06 am
Genesis 2 :1-3 States clearly that after YHWH had finished creating. He rested on the 7th day and proclaimed it Holy. The names of the days were added to the gregorian calender but the People of Israel numbered the days of the week rather then calling them by name.The seventh day correlates to the day we call "saturday" which is still the seventh day even on our pagan calender. There has never been any confusion among the Jewish people as to which day was the 7th day. Yeshua did not correct the day that they observed as Sabbath. He kept that day as well so we can be assured that the Sabbath is correct. The keeping of the day of the sun as a replacemnet for the sabbath has no basis in the scriptures.
Blessings in Yeshua
Blessings in Yeshua
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by IXOYE0809 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:24 am
4Zion wrote:Shalom!
Many believers quote passages from Pauls letters to justify their stance that the Torah is "not for christians." I have listened to that nonsense most of my life. They have absolutely NO concept of what Paul is speaking about!
maybe you should read Yehoshua's words and believe ..
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
What Yehoshua is saying here, is that the covenant with the Jews who do NOT believe in him as the Messiah still stands between God and the Jews which Paul also teached ..
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Yehoshua was born under the Law so he observed it until his Crucifixion to which he enstated a new covenant to WHOSOEVER (john 3:16) belived that he was God and died for our sins ..
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
However what Yehoshua came to fulfill, was prophecy ..
Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
Jhn 15:25 "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, 'THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'
Personally I find the words above by Yehoshua "THEIR LAW" very striking ..
And as to what Paul & John are talking about is VERY CLEAR and INSPIRED by the HOLY SPIRIT who IS GOD
Jhn 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
1Cr 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
God will honor what ever we feel like doing....as long as we are sincere . This is a very SERIOUS mistake! Remember the Jews spent 70 yrs of captivity to Babylon, because they thought THAT, about the 4th commandment! YHWH takes the issue of the Sabbath VERY seriously.
MAKE NO MISTAKE .. GOD JUDGES US ON OUR HEARTS
If Christians were completely ignorant. I suppose there might be some excuse. But, I do NOT believe that they are. Most are simply rebellious and stiff necked.
JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED (mat 7:1)
My question is ...WHY??? If they know the truth, why don't they just observe Sabbath on Saturday?
Sunday as a day or "rest" was established during the early church .. this was done because the original church (catholik 100 AD) distinguished themselves from the Judaic religion)
The answer to that question,is because it is inconvenient! They have things they like to do on saturday. Mow the lawn, watch football, go to a movie.... They want to observe their sabbath their own way and not the way YHWH instructed them to.
This is unfounded SUPPOSITTION
People have no moral compass without it,There are no guildline besides it. To say that it is irrelivant or just for one group of people is just ludicrous!
nay .. it IS scripture
We are not on an "honor system!!!" We WILL be held accountable to YHWH's word in the end.
yes we are held accountable to the 10 Commandments .. but NOT the Law of Moses
Yeshua said " IF you love me, you WILL keep my commandments!" If we think Yeshuas commands were differant then those given at Sinai. Then we must believe that Yeshua was not the I AM as he said that he was! We just can't have it both ways.
God gave Moses the 10 Commandments AND the Law BOTH (read leviticus)
Blessings in Yeshua!
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:8 The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
May the Holy Spirit open your eyes and bless your heart brother .. IXOYE
Re: Do Christians follow pagan tradition?
by sugarman on Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:38 am
Anastasia wrote:Hold on Sugar man, maybe I should say me not all of us,
sorry God knows what he is doing. I do not try to earn salvation by keeping the
Law; that is already given to me free of charge. But I do love Yahweh’s law
because He put it there for my benefit, when I obey it I know God is please
when I break it He is not please, well it goes the same with the Sabbath. if I
could obey it I would but that would be for now impossible, well that does not
mean I am going to hell or anyone before me who has not kept the Law will go to
Hell I do not judge Yahweh does that. I just realized that as long as I work
for Wal-Mart I can never have the Sabbath off. You might say why, it is because
our week starts Saturday and it ends on Friday. So this is where Yahweh’s grace
comes in. He knows I want to please Him so I ask Him to do whatever He sees fit
so that I can please Him. Listen Sugarman I already wrote an article on how the
law is written in our hearts and our minds and that we are not under bondage of
the Law but under grace. But you can’t say that Yeshua is not pleased with us
when we try to keep all His ways. He said follow me so the easiest way not to go
wrong is do as Jesus did. If you fall short it is okay we need to depend and
keep trying harder if not than were is the cross we are to carry. Here is what
Yahweh said in Exodus 31: 14-15 Therefore, you must keep the Sabbath as
something sacred. Whoever desecrates it shall be put to death. If anyone does
work on that day, he must be rooted out of his people. Six days there are for
doing work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of complete rest, sacred to the
LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Exodus16:27-28
Still, on the seventh day some of the people went out to gather it, although
they did not find any. Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you
refuse to keep my commandments and laws? Take note! The LORD has given you the Sabbath.
That is why on the sixth day he gives you food for two days. On the seventh day
everyone is to stay home and no one is to go out." Exodus31:12-13 The LORD
said to Moses, "You must also tell the Israelites: Take care to keep my Sabbaths,
for that is to be the token between you and me throughout the generations, to
show that it is I, the LORD, who make you holy. Now Sugarman nobody is forcing
you to do anything I like to do it because it is His day of rest for all eternity.
Even when we go to heaven the Sabbath will never go away. I believe this is
talking about when Yeshua comes to give us salvation. Isaiah 56:1-4 1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do
justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it;
that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any
evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the
Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people:
neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord
unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me,
and take hold of my covenant; As you can see The Jews and Gentiles do receive the
same blessings and curses Jew and Gentile one in Yeshua. Have you read my
letter on Jew and Gentile I hope it is still in the forum? Blessings to you my
dear brother, we are free to do His will. Yahweh might be speaking to me at
this time. He knows our hearts and if your heart does not condemned you than do
not worry okay Brother. Peace Anna
Here a a bible verse for you.
Romans 14:5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike.
Let
each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day,
observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to
God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
I think any day you give God that fits in your tight schedule of work God will honor it.
God understands what you can and not can do.
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